From ER Doctor to Middle School Teacher: Dr. Keith Pochick on Trust, Equity, and Education Reform

In this episode of The Teacher’s Forum, David sits down with Dr. Keith Pochick, an ER doctor turned middle school teacher, to explore his remarkable journey from emergency medicine to the classroom at Providence Day School in Charlotte. Dr. Pochick reflects on what pushed him to leave the ER and pursue teaching (01:37), sharing the rewards and challenges of life as an emergency physician (05:24) and how the changing landscape of healthcare shaped his views on equity (08:46). Throughout the conversation, he discusses the role of trust in both patient care and student learning, the inequities he witnessed in healthcare, and why he believes meaningful education reform is urgently needed.

Dr. Pochick discusses the deep inequities he witnessed in healthcare and how those disparities affect patient outcomes (11:49). He also explains why building trust is foundational—both when treating patients and when supporting students (18:50). Later, he opens up about the moment he decided he could no longer continue practicing medicine (25:13) and what it felt like to navigate the transition into teaching (29:46).

David and Dr. Pochick explore the striking common threads between medicine and education (34:57), from human connection to managing anxiety in high-stakes moments. Dr. Pochick then reflects on the ideas behind his book Tickled Soul and the philosophical journey that shaped it (38:08). The conversation turns to the future of education at (41:03), where he considers whether meaningful reform—or outright revolution—is needed to address issues of equity, funding, and student support.

The episode closes with Dr. Pochick honoring the influential teachers who shaped his own life and career (43:28).

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

From your perspective, what inequities did you see in healthcare, particularly in how patients and providers of color were treated? And how did those experiences perhaps shape your understanding of systemic bias?

SPEAKER_01: 0:12

Interestingly, the folks in who are in healthcare are much less apt to ask why. They're the ones that are high-fiving me and slap me on the back and say, Oh gosh, yeah, you did it. Wow, it's amazing. Just because they're all too familiar with some of the system itself.

SPEAKER_00: 0:27

What's the trust factor? And that's how I am, even as a patient, with whatever the doctor is. Can I trust you to be honest, open with me? And I find that even as a teacher, whether it's a parent of color or not, can you trust me?

SPEAKER_01: 0:40

I just had a ball, didn't feel like work in the least, just very relaxed environment, and the kids were all interested, had chosen to take that class. And that's when I decided maybe I need to look into this a little further.

SPEAKER_00: 0:52

But I'm asking them whether the system of education that we have right now and the way it's structured can truly be reformed, or if we need to have something new and radical in its place.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05

Working in healthcare for 20 years, I think you get kind of bathed in cynicism enough, it starts to kind of settle in and become part of your identity. So it's been nice for me to be able to kind of wash that away.

SPEAKER_00: 1:35

Join us as we engage in thought-provoking discussions about crucial topics in education, from navigating cultural diversity in classrooms to promoting inclusive teaching practices. Our interviews provide valuable insights from experienced educators who are shaping the future of learning. Together, we aim to create a space where innovative ideas and perspectives merge to shape a brighter and more equitable future for students and educators alike. Get ready to be inspired, informed, and engaged as we discuss the challenges, innovations, and triumphs within the education landscape. I'm your host, David Harris, so let's embark on this enlightening journey together and celebrate the power of teaching. Now let's get to today's show. I'm very excited to have with me here today Dr. Keith Pochik. Keith and I work together at Providence Day School here in Charlotte, where we've become not only colleagues but friends. Over his time here, he has openly shared his experiences transitioning from a medical doctor to a middle school science teacher. While we've discussed many things over the years, I don't think I've ever explicitly asked him why he made the decision to leave medicine. Now he has written a book, so today I've invited him on the podcast to discuss this transition into education, especially at a time when many are leaving the field. It's often rare to see someone change careers from a highly prestigious field like medicine to join us in the classroom. A little bit about Keith. He is a former emergency physician who teaches middle school science. He hails from Southwest Virginia and is a graduate of Graham High School, Virginia Tech, and Wake Forest University School of Medicine. Keith, thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_01: 3:35

Thank you so much for having me, David. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00: 3:38

Great. I always start each podcast by asking our guests to give me a little arc of their careers. Some folks talk a little bit about their family background, so you can do that if you want to share that. And your early educational journey and particularly growing up there in Virginia. And then how you went on to medical school. So the floor is yours. And again, thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_01: 3:59

Absolutely. Absolutely. So I grew up in what I would classify as a middle class background. My mom was an elementary school teacher who later went on to become a principal and was in education for essentially her entire professional life. And my dad worked as a traveling sales representative for a couple of different companies as I was growing up, but he was on the road and called on a lot of religious grocery stores throughout our region. Like I said, was on the road and driving a lot. And I went to a what probably most people would consider a fairly small high school. There were about 160 or 170 kids in my graduating class in 1995. Probably about half of us went on to some form of higher education. And I was one who did. My sister and I have a twin sister. We both went to Virginia Tech, it was a little over an hour from where we grew up. And I probably around 10th grade or so was when I became pretty certain that I wanted to go into medicine. I was always into math and science. And I took a biology class in 10th grade that was focused on human anatomy and physiology and just fell in love with that. And that's when I decided that I was going to pursue medicine professionally. And so I just kind of buckled down and, you know, went at it as far as those science requirements were concerned. In college, took the MCAT and did well enough to get in to medical school. And so just kind of went straight through from my late teen years all the way into medical school and started residency when I was, let's see, I would have been 26 years old when I graduated medical school and started my residency.

SPEAKER_00: 5:34

Can you tell me what actually drew you to study biology at Virginia Tech? Was some epiphany, some great moment that happened that you said, I want to be a doctor to save the world, or what was it?

SPEAKER_01: 5:46

It's the first time that I had been presented with that level, that advanced level of, at least at the time for me, that advanced level of physiology. And I just think kind of the beauty of the human body and the way that it functioned. I think through earlier stages of biology, we were more focused on what was growing in a pond, which was obviously enlightening. You have to start somewhere. But I think that when some of those concepts could be put together and synthesized a little more highly, I got even more appreciation for just how complex we are and how our body systems work together. And I think just it was really just a fascination that I wanted to keep exploring. And I felt like I would continue learning things every day. And I definitely did and still am.

SPEAKER_00: 6:29

Great. So finished medical school, and I know you spent over a decade in medicine, leadership roles and so forth. What were some of the rewarding moments of that career?

SPEAKER_01: 6:39

Being able to provide some clarity for people who are upset and anxious and in pain and relief to what's been troubling them, I think that was very validating early on.

SPEAKER_00: 6:51

Now, Keith, you were in emergency medicine from the very beginning.

SPEAKER_01: 6:55

I was in emergency medicine, so that's what I chose out of medical school. When you finish up medical school, you'll almost everyone will pick a residency program to begin. And those can be things like family medicine or internal medicine, general surgery, anesthesia, orthopedics. I loved emergency medicine because I felt like that's where a lot of the thinking and the diagnostic work was done. When I worked on some of the other services like internal medicine and general surgery, a lot of times the problem had already been figured out by the time we got called, you know, this person has appendicitis. We need you to fix it. How did you figure that out? I was fascinated with the process of taking someone who was describing what was a fairly vague and not specific case of having some abdominal pain and figuring out how exactly to diagnose it and what the process was. And that was a lot of the logic and the thinking and teasing away signal from noise, I think. But then, you know, people who come to the ER are almost always having one of the worst days of their lives. And when you could provide reassurance and you could provide some comfort and relief, you know, that was definitely validating and that sustained me for a number of years. You know, I was in medicine for really a total of almost 20 years. I graduated medical school in 2003 and went straight into residency and did emergency medicine and worked also for a few years in the urgent care setting before I made the transition into education.

SPEAKER_00: 8:16

We've got to get what made you actually leave. So I know you were talking a little bit about the rewards, and I know perhaps spoken, or at least I've observed, even you know, in my many years on the earth, that the medical feel has changed. When I was coming up, it was, you know, St. Mary's Hospital, and it was privately owned, the Catholic Church ran it. If it wasn't that, it was some another hospital that was privately owned. That has changed significantly. So I'm anxious to hear about some of the challenges, but also about that. How has that changed from where we now we have like Advocate or here in North Carolina, Atrium or Novant has the owners? You don't have like I think Uptown Charlotte was the Presbyterian hospital. So I'm anxious to hear how the medical field has perhaps changed, which I suspect may have led you to leave.

SPEAKER_01: 9:08

I think there were definitely changes that happened over time. I'm sure I changed over the course of those years, but the job certainly changed quite a lot. And nobody gets to decide the era in which they live and when they're born, really, even the situation in which you're born. But healthcare, U.S. healthcare really started to move towards a model of regional corporate organizations. Really, probably reading back on it, this is before I was in medicine, this process was already in place. But it became a system where virtually every hospital and almost every clinic, I won't say was forced to join that system, but as economies of scale kind of operate, it was a process that kind of elbowed out smaller, more independently run practices. And so a lot of hospitals and a lot of clinics chose to join that system. And I think with that, sure, a lot of the administrative burden is eased of running a smaller private hospital or running a clinic, but you also are giving away some of the autonomy and decision making. And I think that that's something that we certainly felt over the course of those years. I started in the ER at a hospital in Kabaras County, Concord that was independent and it had an incredible staff, incredible staffing ratios. It was known as uh a magnet hospital for nursing, which was a high-level designation for excellence in nursing care. About a year or so after I had signed on there, there was a merger with Carolinas, which later became Atrium, and some things definitely started to change. And so a lot of the staffing ratios and things like that were no longer as supportive as far as the nursing team and clinical staff was concerned. And I think that when you work like I did for a number of years or months in a system that I felt was very well staffed and that we were empowered to provide an excellent level of care. And then to see that kind of erode almost like a beach over the years became a bit of a defeating feeling. And not just for me, I think a lot of other clinical workers felt that. That was something I think for sure that was dragging me down to some degree compelled to change.

SPEAKER_00: 11:12

I want to, before we get into the actual change, I wanted to ask you a little bit, because I find so much is being talked right now about diversity, equity, inclusion, how it's being, you know, stamped out all over the place. And I did, you know, particularly for our listeners, from your perspective, what inequities did you see in healthcare, particularly in how patients and providers of color were treated? And how did those experiences perhaps shape your understanding of systemic bias? Or maybe you'll say there wasn't any, but I doubt that. But I'm just interested, and then we can also kind of piggyback when we talk a little bit about education, because I have a question that's related to that. But I always am fascinated by some of the articles and things I read about some of the biases that exist. Right. So I've heard that black women in the United States are three times more likely to die in childbirth. And there's all kinds of reasons for that. I oftentimes wonder how much of it is systemic. But from your perspective, as someone who was in the field for 20 years, and I suspect from what you've been talking about in rather diverse communities, not just around racial or ethnic lines, but around class lines as well.

SPEAKER_01: 12:19

Yeah, I mean, I think that at some point I realized that I, as a white male, wasn't going to be as questioned as some other fellow colleagues were. A biggie was uh women and I was working alongside who were also emergency physicians, and we were in a completely democratic group. People made the same salaries, and so I will say our group was set up quite equitably when I was in emergency medicine, but I didn't walk into a room and immediately it was assumed that I was the nurse, you know, and so and that happened regularly, especially to some of my younger female colleagues. I would maybe experience the you're not old enough to be doing this, especially early on in my career when I look younger than I do now. But that was probably about the extent of it. And I think that I also wasn't questioned or second-guessed to the degree that, you know, that some of my black colleagues were as they work in medicine. So there was that kind of burden weighing on some of my colleagues that I wasn't experiencing it, just to recognize it at least, I think made me hopefully operate a little bit differently on a day-to-day basis. And then also to sort of take the flip side of the coin, I think that in many instances, and some of this I think is a perceived education level of your patients, of your clientele, so that if you know you were seeing someone who grew up in a rural area and maybe didn't have a high school degree, some of this went on as well. But just this is operating from a place that removed kind of the subtlety and the nuance out of the case and sort of oversimplified the problem that the patient may be presenting with, oversimplified the treatment options and what the complications could be. And I think a lot of this started from a place that was well intentioned, in that I want to help this person arrive at what I see as the correct answer, what I would do if it were me or if it were my family member. I want to help them arrive there as quickly as we can. As time stressors start to pile up, maybe that's those behaviors are are encouraged even more. But I think that someone's natural reaction to that when they feel as if things are being oversimplified, or maybe they're not being told the whole story, is to naturally feel a little distrust and on the part of the patient. So when that happens and someone feels like almost like they're being sold something, that can set up a bit of a, I don't want to say antagonistic, but not a completely collaborative relationship like it needs to be. And so I feel like I'm fairly good at reading the room, so to speak. And I felt like when things seemed to be sliding sideways as far as how I was interacting with the patient or family, it was a time where I just what I needed to do was just take a breath, have a seat if I wasn't sitting already, and be ready to spend some FaceTime and open myself up to questions so that deeper level of trust could be established. And, you know, hopefully I did that when it needed to be done. There were probably times when I didn't do it as well as it needed to be done. But I began to understand that those situations definitely weren't one-offs. These weren't isolated instances, that there were patterns there and how those things occurred.

SPEAKER_00: 15:32

That's interesting because you bring out that word trust. And I see it even within education, is that oftentimes people from marginalized communities, black, brown, have had negative experiences in the educational system, within the medical field, and there is no trust that exists between those individuals and the institutions and the people who represent them. And so when I was listening to you, I was like, Yeah, that comes through. What's the trust factor, right? And that's how I am, even as a patient, with whatever the doctor is. Can I trust you to be honest, open with me? And I find that even as a teacher, the parent, whether it's a parent of color or not, is can you trust me? Are you going to do right by me and my child? And I think that's a powerful thing. And you know, I'm gonna ask you this quick question and hadn't thought about it, but how did you gain trust when people didn't have it?

SPEAKER_01: 16:28

I think it's time is just so key at that point. Just when, especially in the environment that we live and work in now in the modern world, we're spread thin and we're hurried, and there are all these tasks that we have on our lists to perform and accomplish, and you just want to get to the next one. And when someone can just can sit down, can pause for a second, can look you in the eye, and just put things on as even of a footing as they can possibly be, and open up to some questions and show that you're willing to spend the time. I think that that is the biggest way to establish, or the most effective way in my mind, to establish trust. And it winds up more than paying itself off over the long haul to just establish that early, take the time that's necessary to establish that early. And then there isn't the degree of second guessing and worrying and, you know, and potentially setting up, like I said, something that's not completely collaborative. Because if you have a physician and patient relationship that's not a hundred percent collaborative, you know, it's just so open for so many things to go wrong at so many different times. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 17:37

You know, and one of the things too, Keith, is that you know, I think in medicine or the health outcomes for folks of color are generally much lower, as I mentioned earlier. And in education as well. Right? For students of color, the outcomes, if we're only going to measure it by test scores, but there are other measures as well, are not the same. And I tend to think a lot of it is again the lack of trust. But I'm wondering the implicit bias that doctors or teachers have, the expectations they have. I wonder oftentimes, and I don't know if there's any way you can finitely say this is the reason, but affect that, right? People's biases affect some of the overall outcomes. And so there's no doubt about that. Uh-huh. And did you were you gonna add something or no?

SPEAKER_01: 18:23

Because I was gonna No, I think and some of that is it's so difficult. And you teach US history and you teach also a you know a global studies course. In my mind, it's because of the US's history, it's so difficult to tease apart race and social class because they were so intertwined and still are for so long. How could you really even begin to control for some of those things? And that's just one of the sad states of where we are, is that was kind of baked into the system that you know, race was going to be the predictor of social class.

SPEAKER_00: 18:54

Right. But even, and I should be remissive, and you would probably agree, even when we talk about class in the Appalachian Mountains or in West Virginia or Virginia in the area that you grew up where people were working class and poor oftentimes, the health outcomes because, especially with this corporatization of medicine, there are not a lot of hospitals in these rural areas. You gotta go from, you know, I oftentimes think, you know, we've been talking a lot, have experienced cancer in my own family. You know, I just think if you're in some little town in Appalachia or in Mississippi and you get cancer, I just like, wow, where do you have to go to get the most up-to-date, you know, treatments, the chemotherapy and the radiation, and you just can see people not doing it and dying from it.

SPEAKER_01: 19:37

Absolutely. Unfortunately, a couple of family members who are navigating some of that stuff right now, and they're in, you know, it's not a completely isolated pocket of Virginia, but they're still having to drive a couple hundred miles for more specialized care. And then, like you said, if that's something that winds up requiring more repeat specialty visits for things like chemo, for things like radiation, what a burden and sometimes almost impossible burden that becomes. Obviously getting worse as Medicaid funding and things like that come into question. So many hospitals in rural areas and underserved areas are absolutely dependent on that. So what do we prioritize? You can tell, I think maybe uh in the questions you sent me earlier on, the way you tell what a country prioritizes is take a look at its budget. Uh, where does it spend its money? And when there are cuts being made to education and healthcare, you know, the poor in rural areas of the country, whether that's in the inner cities or whether that's in, you know, Appalachia where I grew up, are the ones that are gonna suffer.

SPEAKER_00: 20:34

So let's get now, let's transition a little bit to leaving medicine. I know that had to be a major decision. And I'm not gonna lie, when I remember when you came to Providence Day, they said this guy named Keith, he was a doctor, and now he's gonna be working subbing, and then I was like, What? I said, I gotta meet this guy because I want to know what in the world is he doing here, and that's not to say as somebody who's taught this will be my 32nd year beginning soon, that I don't have much respect for my profession, I do, but it was a surprise. So now I'm gonna ask the question, I've probably been waiting like three years to ask you. What pulled you well, first, and maybe they're two separate things. Why did you leave? And I think I got some inkling of that, so you don't have to spend a lot of time on that. And then what made you go into education? And were there other things vying for your attention, right? You had teaching and maybe a couple other things that you could have done.

SPEAKER_01: 21:35

I'm glad you asked this too. And this is really the main reason, really, that book I think was born was because I was asked why so often, and it was just not a very satisfying answer to say it's complicated and it wasn't satisfying for me, and it wasn't satisfying for the person who was asking. Interestingly, the folks in who are in healthcare are much less apt to ask why. They're the ones that are high-fiving me and slap me on the back and say, Oh gosh, yeah, you did it. Wow, it's amazing. Just because they're all too familiar with some of the ills of the system itself, I think that I discussed earlier. But people in education understandably want to know more about why. But, you know, luckily after 20 years in medicine, I was in a spot that I was fortunate enough to be able to even entertain doing something like this. You know, I had paid my loans off, you know, financially was in a pretty good spot. My wife, God bless her, still loves her job in pediatrics and is working about, I think, as much as the sort of perfect Goldilocks amount of how much she wants to work in an average week and is still enjoying that. And so she's been very steady. But the things that I think were starting to wear me down in medicine, I realized that when I was teaching, there were actually plenty of teaching opportunities that came with that job. There were PA students and there were residents and medical students and nurse practitioners and things like that who would work with me. And then I did a chief resident year when I was in residency and gave, you know, was preparing didactic lectures and conferences and things like that. And those teaching instances never really felt like work to me. Those were more renewing and invigorating. And I think I was able to pull back enough and get a little wider of an angle of what was wrong and what was right with my job and with where I was professionally to be able to say, well, teaching part you really kind of dig. Maybe we should explore this a little further. And at some point when I was feeling, you know, just a little off-mission and burned out, I reached out to Amy Jordan in our upper school science department. She invited me in to come and help dissect on one of their dissection days. And I just sat a ball. Like it didn't feel like work in the least, just very relaxed environment. And the kids were all interested, had chosen to take that class. And that's when I decided, I mean, maybe I need to look into this a little further. And so it became a process over a couple of years to make the transition and to pick up some substitute shifts. And we were in a pretty brutal wave of COVID back, had reached a point where I had actually resigned my administrative role in urgent care. And PD told me, hey, look, any day you want to work, you can show us how we were just hurting and reeling from COVID. People were out for five and 10 days at a time. I became a more committed to it. And you know, next thing you know, someone goes out on leave early and Leaf Tappy asked me if I wanted to take four seventh grade science classes. And I just kind of said to myself, I'm either going to do this now or I'm never going to do it. So I did. And I've been very grateful that I've had the chances and opportunities that I've had. And I try to look at it that way when I go into work every day, is that this is just this is an opportunity that I got that a lot of people won't get. And if I continue to look at it like that, I'll make more of it. I'll make the most of the days that I'm there.

SPEAKER_00: 24:44

And the reason I'm asking is certainly for our listeners in you know, private schools don't have necessarily the certification requirements that you might have needed if you wanted to teach in CMS or Charlotte Mecklenburg school system. So what kind of support did you have to have? What were the challenges? Because I'm assuming it's like, wow, here I am in front of all these middle school kids and I'm teaching. And one thing I've learned over the years, I tell people that's one of the things about professors. Many of them, I sometimes think K through 12 teachers are better teachers sometimes than professors at a university because they know the subject matter well. But just because you know a subject matter doesn't mean you can teach it. So what were some of the challenges, the help that you needed, and may still need as you do this job, because you're only three or four years in?

SPEAKER_01: 25:29

That's right. I'm learning every day. And you know, that when I first took on the seventh grade science classes, the four seventh grade science classes, Doug Burgess treated me like a graduate student, or maybe someone who wasn't even at that level when he was teaching me the physics of optics that I was going to need to teach to seventh graders. And I hadn't thought about that in probably 20-some years and needed to wake it up. And so I first had to become the student, and he was very patient with me. And it you people at Providence Day have gone out of their way over and over and over when I have any sort of dilemma, whether it's something that's got to do with discipline, whether it's something to do with the parent interaction, whether it's something to do with clerical work, because I'm a product of the analog age and I plod through stuff like a lot of people do who were born in the 70s or before. But people, I could go to two or three dozen different people at any point and get advice. And, you know, people just truly wanted me to succeed, and they still do. Bonnie Wright, with who now heads up our middle school science department, has been doing this for 20-some years, I think, total, maybe more. And she just has, I mean, she can run the science lab like she's an army quartermaster, is just incredibly organized, can show me tricks and shortcuts and tips on how to do stuff from a clerical standpoint. It's almost like as long as I was willing to put in the effort, people were not going to let me fail. That was a good feeling when I realized that because coming in as a first-year teacher, the closest thing I can compare it to, having been through both, is it's a lot like your intern year in medicine. You know, you just come in, you're doing these every month rotations. You might be on plastic surgery for a month, and then you're on neurology for a month, and then you're on pediatrics, and then you're doing OBGYN. You're the least experienced, least knowledgeable person on the team every time, over and over and over and over. And it's fairly humbling. The first year of teaching is kind of like that, and you're just not really sure coming into each day. This is the first time I've done this lesson. I'm not really sure if I'm gonna sink or swim. I'm gonna toss this boomerang out and hope it comes back. And you learn a lot that way on what's gonna work and what doesn't work. And also during a lot of my open periods, I would go and sit in on your class, or I would sit in on Wes Shira's class, or go sit in on Ann Parker's class and just pick up some strategies, some things to do when we needed to transition from one activity to the other. How can we break something up and allow a little bit of spontaneity without there being total chaos that you can't recover from? And I got to see a lot of that and you know, a lot of things that worked and some things that didn't work and put them into action. So, but it's still, I mean, I have so much to learn and I'm in a better spot because I feel like I'll learn it. I'm in a place where I can learn it and I'm supported. And I'm also given just enough autonomy and freedom to occasionally just try something new. And if I follow my face, then we learn from that too. And the kids see that as well. And there's nothing wrong with that. Like they when the kids see, wow, that was a total face plan, and we were able to shift and recover, and that's going to happen to me sometimes. And a lot of it's how you handle it and how you respond and bounce back. So I'm very, very fortunate to be where I am.

SPEAKER_00: 28:40

Let me ask you this are there, or how do you reconcile the differences and similarities between the communities you serve in both medicine and students?

SPEAKER_01: 28:48

As far as just because with where we are, we're in a an independent school that tends to have a population that's a little more well off and a little more wealthy. Is that what you mean compared to where I came from in medicine?

SPEAKER_00: 28:59

Or yeah, the different communities, yeah, that's part of it. I think I'm just interesting, and maybe I should phrase it a little bit differently, maybe thinking what are the through lines that you find in your career in medicine that you find in education? Are there through lines?

SPEAKER_01: 29:19

Yeah, I think anxiety is certainly one. You know, I come from emergency medicine, and so you know, everyone who came in there, in addition to what they had going on, was also having an anxiety attack. You know, if you broke your leg, of course you're having an anxiety attack. If you can't breathe, of course there's anxiety that's sprinkled in. And it's the same story, I think, just anxiety, and I mean a different way, obviously, and with the younger overall patient population, but people are unsure and uncertain. And I think that if whatever you can do to create a culture of safety is going to pay dividends. So, you know, time spent doing that, you know, when the kids know it's okay for me to mess up, I can correct this if I need some extra. Help, I can advocate for myself and figure out ways to get it. And I think you asked in the questions you sent ahead about why middle school. And this kind of leads into that. And I think it's just that kids at this age are now sort of becoming their adult selves with a little less guidance from their parents. You know, most of the parents are starting to maybe peel away a little bit by the time the kids are in the middle school compared to when they were in lower school. But then also are there's not the degree of there's not the same focus or preoccupation on grades and transcripts. So the kids are afforded a little bit of room to try it a different way. And if they screw up, then what do we need to do to fix it? And I think that that's a good place to be. And then you also get to see the kids really just develop their style or mature into their adult selves. That's really rewarding.

SPEAKER_00: 30:49

So I know that you've written a book about this transition and reflects, of course, on your journey from becoming a doctor to teacher. It's called Tickled Soul. Without giving too much away, what do you think, or what do you hope resonates most with educators who sit down and read it?

SPEAKER_01: 31:03

I think that I sure don't want it to be preachy because I'm still new to this. So experienced educators in particular, they know a lot more about this and the process and the drawbacks and the joys and struggles than I do. So I wouldn't try to turn it into something that's a you know, that's preachy. This is just my experience with it. And I think what it's allowed me to do is just even though I'm getting close to 50 years old, that I now am approaching things with a little more curiosity and optimism than I had before. And I think working in healthcare for 20 years sort of, I don't know, I think you get kind of bathed in cynicism enough, it starts to kind of settle in and become part of your identity. It's been nice for me to be able to kind of wash that away. That's a key thing. And then also the book, because I was asked why did you decide to do this and realized that this was such a dramatic and I don't want to say completely unique or uncharted, but it doesn't happen very often for someone to make this transition that I did. There was some interest there. And when I went back to explore it, I was like, well, I kind of need to understand a little more about what my own identity is and what my own purpose is. And that started, I realized I needed to go back to the very beginning and what exactly do I believe it's healthy to do that, I think, for just about anyone at various stages of their lives. But I think in midlife in particular, it can be quite enlightening.

SPEAKER_00: 32:25

Great. It is very fascinating. And I would say probably rare that somebody leaves medicine and then goes into it. So it's just a fascinating thing. And I'm glad that you sit down and wrote the book. So now if anybody asks you that question, you just give them the book. That's exactly right. Great. I do want to ask you this question. This season, I'm asking all my guests to reflect on whether the way education is currently structured, and of course, you've only been in it a few years, but if you want to weave in perhaps in medicine, that's fine too. But I'm asking them whether the system of education that we have right now and the way it's structured can truly be reformed, or if it is something or if we need to have something new and radical in its place. So again, from your perspective, drawing on both your short term in education and your longer career in medicine, do you think meaningful change in education is possible from within, or does it require something fundamentally or radically different?

SPEAKER_01: 33:25

Boy, I mean, that's such a tough question. I think that's a lot of us see trends that are not promising as far as education is concerned, and that troubles us when you want to feel like you're leaving a world that's a little better for your kids and their kids. So to me, I think we're not going to improve it by funding it less. And so, you know, policy decisions that affect budget are huge. I mean, people shouldn't have to work in medicine for 20 years before they feel like they can financially take a job in education. It's got to be a more financially robust and viable option for teachers. And I think too, just you know, as funding gets cut and class sizes get bigger and bigger and bigger, and you know, the classroom becomes more of a crowd control issue as opposed to a learning environment, what can we expect to be getting out of that? You can't fix every problem by throwing money at it, but I think that it's certainly not gonna get better with funding that's cut, just put it that way.

SPEAKER_00: 34:21

In the public school system, and of course, you know, we could probably talk forever about you know the inequities in the system if one lives in an affluent area, right? You get a better education. But that's the same in medicine. You live in an affluent area, whether you're gonna get a better health care and better outcomes, and that's sadly how it exists. Well, great. My last question always to my guest is can you tell us about a teacher who made a significant difference in your life?

SPEAKER_01: 34:52

I think my high school math teacher was a guy named Bob Russell, and he was probably in his 60s already by the time I got to high school. I had him all four years as I came through, and I was a good math student. But he was about 6'7, and he looked like Lurch from the Adams family, and would go outside and smoke pretty much between every period or so. Sometimes a little downtime between each class, where if you could craft a good practical joke for him, he actually loved it. And so, despite the fact he had done it for so many years, he came in just with this every day's a new day and a little different, and some different fun things can happen. And I think that approach was just kind of enlightening to see someone who was at in sort of the twilight of their career and still enjoying it as much as he did. That's how I hope I hope my career ends.

SPEAKER_00: 35:41

Great, great. Great again having you on the podcast. I want you again to say the name of the book, where they can find it, and if people want to talk to you or learn on a one-on-one how they might be able to contact you.

SPEAKER_01: 35:54

Sure. So the book is Tickled Soul, is sort of the bit print at the top, and then underneath that is the philosophical journey of a doctor turned middle school teacher. You can get it on the heavy hitter sites like Amazon and Barnes and Noble and some of the others you're familiar with. But the publisher also, if you want to support a smaller business, the publisher is Warren Publishing, and you can order it there as well. I'm on LinkedIn if anyone would like to connect there. And then my email address is just Kpochick, K-P-O-C-H-I-C-K at gmail.com, and I'm happy to connect and bat some ideas around.

SPEAKER_00: 36:27

Ray and I'll put all that too in the show notes, and people can find that book and pick it up. I've begun reading and it's quite good. I'm enjoying it. Thank you. Oh, definitely, definitely. Again, Keith, thank you for taking the time to come on the Teachers Forum. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01: 36:41

David, thank you so much for having me. We'll see you again tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00: 36:54

Thank you for listening to the Teachers Forum podcast with me, your host, David Harris. I hope you have enjoyed today's discussion. You can reach the Teachers Forum on Twitter at the Forum 1993 or by email to David at the teachersforum.org. Let me know what you think or if you have an idea for a future podcast. Don't forget to check out all the links and resources in the show notes. That's all for this episode. To everyone out there, thank you so much for taking the time to listen. And to my fellow educators far and wide, remember that to teach is to make footprints in the sand for an eternity. Peace.